Who knew we were all so passionate about sleep? Those comments in the last post were very thought provoking. Except for that Eric guy.
Apparently parents choosing to sleep or not seep with their kids is a very hot topic. The way we see it, different strokes for different folks. There definitely isn’t a right answer here. Parenting is all about what works best for your family. But if we were to bring Paige to our bed, how would we procreate? Don’t you want us to have more kids? Come on! Think of all the new stories I would have if we had another. In all seriousness, having one kid in our bed would create more problems than it solves for us.
Anyways, I meant to post my experience with sleeping next to Paige a few weeks ago. Let’s put it this way, I know prisoners of war that aren’t tortured like I was when we are in the same bed. Did I mention she has a head that used to be in the 90th percentile? I have never been head butted, kicked, and rolled on so many times in such a short period of time. Just so you are aware, the Paige rule of sleeping is: 84 percent of her body must be touching yours!
When we had that family therapist out here a few months ago she said something that has resonated with me since that meeting. She provided us with 3 pages of suggestions with helping us put Paige down. Her philosophy was to use the suggestions that work for us as a family because it wasn’t her job to tell us what to do. I really like that approach because most professionals in the medical field usually tell you what to do based on the way they practice medicine. It’s usually a very absolute approach. What’s good for the goose isn’t always good for the gander, right? At the end of the day, it’s us parents that have to take all the available information and use it to make the best decisions for our children. The NICU teaches you this lesson the first day.
I’ve also received numerous emails in addition to all the comments on the last post. I guess misery loves company right? (Sarah: That was the longest email I have ever read. Thank you for putting forth that effort to help us) Based on everything I’ve read and discussed with friends, family, and specialists, we’ve tried just about everything. But, being the resourceful folks we are, there are still a few more tricks up our sleeves!
For fun, let’s describe our nighttime ritual. We try to stick to the schedule as much as possible. We eat around 5:30. Depending on how the babies nap, we usually draw a bath between 6:30 - 7 based on their crankiness. I want the babies to stay up as late as they can so hopefully they wake up later in the morning. We’ve incorporated dimmers in the house, so when bath time approaches, all the lights are dimmed. Televisions are turned off and some cool tunes are put on. The babies no longer play in the bath. The bath is now just to relax them and signal bedtime is near. About 15 minutes in the bath we pull them out and get them dressed for bed. Paige typically gets a deep pressure massage while I’m changing her into her PJs. Then we bring them into Cole’s room where we have 2 recliners. We each take a baby and brush their teeth and just chill out with them for 15+ minutes. Cole still gets a nighttime bottle and a breathing treatment, so we usually spend over an 1/2 hour with him. He’s usually a limp noodle by the time we actually put him in his crib. Thank goodness he loves going to bed. Anyways depending on Paige’s day, sometimes she can fall asleep in the recliner or sometimes she’s on the verge of sleeping. Either way, as soon as we get up to bring her to her bedroom, she’s wide awake.
The moment she enters her bedroom, she’ll clamp up on me and breathe a little more heavy. If I choose to lie next to her, she would lie with me and she absolutely loves it. However, the moment I make a move for the door, she’ll pop-up and start wailing. Whether it’s 5 minutes or 50 minutes, she has a sixth sense about me being in the room. When she was in her crib, she would cry from less than a minute to up to 20 minutes before falling asleep. I don’t want her in a big bed right now, but after watching her in her room without her knowing it and seeing her break her crib with her head and bang her head with the force of her body, there is no way we were going to keep her in that crib.
Anyways, with moving to the big bed, we’re slowly trying to train her to sleep. Basically we put her in her bed and walk out. We have a gate on the front door so we don’t close her door anymore. I’m hoping this builds her trust keeping the door open so she realizes we haven’t really left her. Anyways, when she gets up, we go back in and put her down. This goes on for a long time, but after doing it for what seems like a 244 times, you can tell she gets it, but now she’s just fighting it because she’s stubborn (like mommy) and maybe a little manipulative (like daddy). This regimine takes a lot of time to incorporate. It’s a ton of work, but we are slowly and I mean slowly seeing progress. I’m guessing if this technique is going to work, it will take at least 1 week of vigilance. The real challenge comes when it’s 3 in the morning. Paige can wake up from 1 to 3 times a night and cry for 20 minutes to an hour each time. It’s hard to muster up the strength to continue the program and not go in and sleep with her.
You have to remember, we’ve been dealing with these sleep issues now for almost 11 months. Do I think she’s having night terrors. Nope, she does the same freak out during nap time when it’s light out and she’s not asleep. Is it normal for kids this age to cry like this? Yep, but since Paige has been doing it since the beginning of the year, this is more of a Paige issue than being a 2 year old issue. Is she like this because of her eyes? Maybe, but Cole has worse eyesight and doesn’t have any of these issues. Is she like this because of the dark? Nope, she’s like this at nap time as well. This girl is extremely bright, but extremely high strung.
We’ll keep on trucking with this routine for a week and see what happens. Like the doctor said, if she’s still having these issues in the middle of the night, we’ll do a sleep study to rule out seizures (which we totally don’t think she has).
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Wow! The strength that you both must be drawing on at this time must be tremendous! (I really am so grateful for good sleepers.)
Kudos to you for trying and trying and trying, and realizing that there will be long-term gains for short-term agony; and doing what’s best at 3am instead of what’s easy. (And no, I’m not implying at all that 11 months is short-term! 11 months is torture!)
It’s good to know exactly how smart our children are. It’s good to recognize that she’s using above-average intelligence in waiting you out and manipulating and scheming. It’s good to know that someday, that brain will be used for good and not evil.
This is some of what our PT is saying about Lessa and walking; she COULD walk, but is smart enough to know that falling hurts and why bother.
Pam - that’s how Paige was. The therapists were convinced she could walk, but Paige doesn’t do things unless she knows she can do it perfectly. One day, she just started working.
I think that the controversy is more over sleep training than it is over where a child sleeps. I think the difference of opinion is over whether babies cry to manipulate or not.
As for sex in a family bed, we’ve had no problems at all. Our second will be here in June. :o)
Karen that’s teaching him young!
Sounds like Paige just has separation anxiety issues. And I think you’re doing a great job. Parenting and sleep issues are the hardest for me, and most parents I know.
As for the PP’s comment about manipulating, I believe whole-heartedly that babies can manipulate. They work until they get what they “need”, and that’s the effort they’ll put into it the next time, because it’s what worked in the past. “Manipulation” is a harsh word, but it’s really just a natural instinct in a baby/child.
Good luck, and I hope you start to see some great results REALLY soon!
Oh without a doubt she has separation anxiety issues. She’ll probably have these issues for a long time. It’s all about minimizing them as much as possible now so she can blosum and the world can see how great she is.
I know you’re getting tons and tons of advice but who usually puts her to bed? My son is very attached to me (twin brother not as much) so I have a hard time putting him down. He screams and screams for me but when my husband does it, it isn’t too bad. The really rough nights where he wakes up repeatedly, I have my husband put him down and give him his pacifier so he doesn’t see me. Now, that doesn’t always work because my husband works a lot and it’s often me at bedtime, but you get the idea. Can you sit in her room or by the door or does she want you to lay with her? I saw that on Supernanny sometimes. My kids are still in cribs (20 mos) but I plan on doing that when we move to big boy beds. My boys also have to go to sleep with their lullabies on. Even for naps. If they are having a rough night I turn on my (I mean their) Ipod and they fall alseep. We also don’t want them sleeping with us unless it’s an extreme circumstance or their sick.
Good luck! This is so tough I know and especially when you have other kids, other responsibiliites, housework, etc to do while their sleeping. Just take comfort in the fact that she won’t be doing this forever and I admire her tough personality!
Karen’s right - it is possible to have sex when you have a family bed. I’m due in June too!!
hahaha…definitely different strokes for different folks!
Hi, Eric and Tobie:
First of all, I bow down to your parental patience, love, and fortitude.
You guys rock.
Second of all, has P. ever been tested(yeah, yeah, I know, MORE testing) for sensory integration disorder? Have “they” ever recommended brushing her, for example, or the use of a weighted blanket? If so and I’m forgetting I apologize.
Tertia at So Close(you can link through Billie’s Blog) has boy/girl twins and the girl has no problem with sleeping but her son… well, anyway, Paige sounds very similar to Adam, as in other aspects of their lives. Tertia herself has SID so she might have some insight to offer. If nothing else, she’s definitely been to similar places you guys are in terms of frustration/well-meant advice, etc.
Of course everyone has their own opinion, and of course that is great….so here’s mine. I think you guys are doing the right thing too. Having a “family bed” is not the easiest to stop. My friend has four kids, the oldest 2 twins and she has rocked (read: rocked sung, loved, babied, for over 1 hour every night) every one of them to sleep. She thought they “needed” it because her kids just “can’t go to sleep on their own, they just keep crying”. Well, when the kid wakes up in the middle of the night (because this is what kids do) and she wasn’t still rocking them, they would go into hystericks (sp?). Of course in the middle of the night she didn’t want to rock them back to sleep so she let them come into bed with her. Her husband usually ends up on the couch. Anyway, the twins are almost 9 (YES 9!!) and they STILL come into their room at night. Since they all can’t possibly fit in the bed together, they just sprall all over the room. I am just not convinced this is the best thing. Sorry for the ramblings….but there is my 2 cents!
Hi!
Get the book, Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child-I can’t remember the name of the author, but it changed our lives. We too had a preemie (28 weeker) with many sleep issues. The book taught us that putting children to bed later does not mean they will sleep later-it actually means they will get up earlier and have a much more restless sleep because the are already “overtired” by the time you put them to bed. Try putting P to bed in the evening as soon as she shows sleep cues (for our child it was rubbing eyes/zoned out look or sometimes she would become very hyper). At first I thought this was crazy when her cues let us know she was ready for bed at 5:30 pm. After a few weeks though she was sleeping straight through from 6 pm to 7:00 am. She is 3 now and goes to bed around 7, but always sleeps through the night until around 7:45-8:00 am the next day.
This book might be worth a read!! Good Luck!!
Krz - I don’t know who you are, but thanks for that post. This is a hot topic in our house. I’ve been arguing for months that regardless of the time she goes down, it doesn’t change how long she sleeps!
As Krz posted, I would not keep her up later in the hope she will sleep later in the morning. That, in my experience, just doesn’t work. You would think that it would. It only seems logical that if she stays up late she will sleep later in the morning. But, for some reason, this just doesn’t happen with kids.
If my eight year old stays up late, he actually wakes up EARLIER in the morning. Crazy, huh? Something about being overtired results in a shorter night of sleep.
Toddlers absolutely can manipulate. Sounds like it’s going to be a battle of wills. Although my kids have not battled over bedtime, they have both taken stubborn to new heights over potty training. Toddlers realize there is something they can control and hold on for dear life! As difficult as it is for you right now, I really think she will start being able to sleep on her own.
I just thought of something…she sleeps in her own room? Did she and Cole use to share a bedroom? If so, that could be part of her anxiety over sleep.
But, what the heck do I know, right? lol
No, they’ve been in separate rooms for what seems like forever.
Hi Guys
Keep it up it works. My son was about 21 months when we did this method. One night he got up 75 times between 8 and 8am. We keep count on a whiteboard,we were all zonked for days. The next night it was 15 times. Then down to 5 and then after 8 days he slept. He has always been a very bright child who knew how to work the parent system. So we knew we had to stick to it. What works for you guys is going to be the best method because you can maintain it.
But you are also getting so good insight for other parents. I wish I had known about SID during that time. Fast forward three years now we found out he is gifted and has sensory intergration issues. Gifted kiddos tend to be perfectist and very strong willed. (hence the 75 times in one night.) But if we had known about his SID earlier we could have helped him more with his sleep issues.
Azzia - What would you have done different knowing that he has SID?
Have you ever tried the bedtime “routine” in her room as opposed to Coles? Maybe moving her after she is calm is part of the upset. Just a thought….not trying to give advice…
Yes…this last week we did naptime in Paige’s room which worked really well. I had written a blog post that Drew wants in on the reading time as well now that he’s older and all four of us can plop on the queen mattress and read stories. Our neurodoc also suggested that we put Paige down first because she could scream/cry it out without waking others and our doc thought she might cling to us for some one-on-one time if it was just me and her. That’s sad for me to think that she needs that individual attention that desperately that she would go bezerk…but the reality is that she is never alone with me.
Hi. First of all, sorry for raising the hot topic, I just thought I would share what seems to be working well with my Julia because her behavior was incredibly similar to Paige’s. I want to add this, though. I personally tried the “family bed” thing, and I don’t think it’s that great for the parents after the children are above x months (where x depends on the parents). So what I was suggesting was only a temporary solution, something to do for a little while to ease the fears. If it works I would keep doing it on the days when anxiety is really bad only. This assumes that the anxiety gets better this way, so there’s the IF. For Julia it is working, although last night guess where she sleeped half of the night? In any case, if it doesn’t work for the family, it shouldn’t be tried, that’s for sure.
When separation anxiety started to get better for Julia, we noticed that her behavior improved during the day at first, i.e., temper tantrums slowly decreased, and now she has them only when she is obviously tired or hungry. The nighttime behavior started to improve only several weeks after the day got better. What I am trying to say is hang in there, this will pass eventually, or at least she’ll go to college and move to a dorm ; )
By the way in addition to Julia, we have a two-month onld baby. I put her awake in the crib and she falls asleep on her own. She doesn’t cry at night unless I am so sleepy that I don’t hear her wake up to ask for a feeding, and often has a 6-8 hour sleep stretch at night. Yes, she’s one of these. I did not believe these kind of babies really existed, although I had heard of them. She was this calm from day one at the hospital, just like Julia was a screaming thing from day one. This was a big confidence boost for me, because sometimes when you have the “toddler from hell” like mine you tend to think that you are be doing something wrong, which is not the case. Isn’t this fun?
What would happen if you put Cole and Paige in the same room?
good luck with the sleeping!
Lizzi
I really hope Paige’s sleep issues get better soon. I admire your persistence. My boys had sleep issues around the same age, and especially when they went into their toddler beds. I didn’t have the same persistence and having 3 boys in bed was not an option. I ended up getting a blow up mattress and put it in the boys room. If they started crying I went to their room. This was the only way I could get sleep….and figured it wouldn’t last forever. Quitely going in the bedroom to sleep was a easier alternative than having one wake up the other 2. When they were babies they would sleep through each other’s cries but not when they got older. This last for about a year, until they got bunk beds. We hyped the bunk beds for quite awhile and once they had their new beds we had no more issues. I wish I would have had the persistence that you both do….it may have allowed me to sleep in my bed alot sooner…..but as you said we did what works for our family. Good luck, and I hope all the sleepless nights are soon a thing of the past!!!
Hi Eric and Toby
If I had known he had SID then I would have used some of the following things:
-Brushing method before bed and during the day
-More hugs during bedtime routine (pressure and security)
-White noise or ocean sound machines…he is asleep within 5mins now (some kids white noise can be irritating so test it first)
-Kiddie taco (Sheets and footed pj are big problems for some kids with SID but wrapping them sometimes without cloths in their favorite blanket provides security. Now I can only imagine what it was like for him to be in this big room without the ability to spatial orientation himself.)
-Our friends use ]a king size pillow under their daughters matteress sheet vertically, so when she rolls or moves at night she comes in contact with a soft form. This way the pillow doesn’t move.
-A balance sensory diet during the day (high activity, weight muscle work early and sensory snacks such as therapy putty, play dough late in the day)
-Through play find out alerting colors (his is yellow) remove it from the room
We started OT this year and the results are great. After applying the brushing method the first week, he was more relaxed and focused. Now his voice modulation (he used to be LOUD) and spatial orientation are in line with his age.
Ask your therapist about the evaluation for SID, it is worth a shot to use some of the methods.
I am sorry to hear about Pagie’s sleep troubles (and also about Cole’s eyes…he’ll be in my prayers). I just wanted to tell you that I am glad that you have chosen not to let Paige sleep in your bed. When our son (28 weeker) had pneumonia last summer, it was “easier” for us to have him in our bed. It was something I vowed I’d never do. He’s going to be 2 next week and he’s still sleeping with us! We’re expecting a baby in Feb, and are trying desperately to get him into his own bed. (The brand new, super cool, fire truck bed is already collecting dust in the basement) I hope you find something that works (and maybe I can steal your method!)
A note on the SID…if she does have it, the bed you’ve got would be WAY too big. She would be more comfortable in a tiny, tiny space with lots of pillows and one blanket of choice. My daughter doesn’t have SID, but she’s GT and it’s common with other GT kids, and I have come across lots of kids with it.